Tasleem - Do you look to other dancers for inspiration?

Frankie - I'm not much of an audience for dance this way. Dance in general has become very difficult for me to watch, just because there is so much going on in my head. There's so much I want to say, and there's so much that I'm afraid that I will absorb from other dancers, which may taint the purity of what I'm trying to say. I know it's a silly idea, but I'm very careful about what I look at. People often come up with ideas and choreograph something and they don't realize that it wasn't their idea. It's something they saw a long time ago and it kind of got pushed down in their subconscious and it comes out again. But it happens, and like I said, the EYE is very, very powerful. I always tell the dancers, "Be careful who you choose to be exposed to because you may absorb those things. You will sometimes end up manifesting those things that you may not want to."

But I also think it's important not to become critical of either yourself or other people because it doesn't really do anything to help you progress. Sure, you are supposed to be introspective. You want to take looks at yourself at different periods to see where you're developing and how you're developing, and you take those pauses to look. But constantly criticizing yourself where you're over doing it can lead you to end up hindering what you're capable of doing and learning.

So in trying to be aware of who you're looking at and what you're looking at, is there a place that you do go to, or a person who you turn to, for inspiration?

I think that I've always found inspiration in music. And actually, I like to observe artists who are doing WHATEVER they are doing at very, very high levels. I had this thing before where I wanted to surround myself with high quality stuff, so that my standards would be higher. That way, I wouldn't be satisfied with just anything. And I did this with everything, whether it came to art or music, or artists, or anything. For example, there's a movie called Searching for Bobby Fischer, about a little kid who is a chess genius. That stuff really gets my blood going and it's not about WHAT they're doing. It's about the fact that they're doing it at such a high level and they have such a genius for it. And THAT really motivates me, makes me WANT to explore that and express it.

I even recently saw a documentary about a man named Christian Hosoi who was one of the very best skateboarders. And he was kind of a Tony Hawk contemporary. They talked about how he was the best there was, and how he had taken things to another level. He loved it to a degree that people didn't understand. But HE was the man at what he did. It doesn't matter what it is, whether I'm interested in skateboarding or not, it's just the fact that people like that ATTACK what they're doing and what they love at such a great level. I love that (smiles).

I find that the more you can understand, the smaller you end up feeling because the more of the system you are able to observe, and the more realistic your idea of your place in that system is. And when you see what's possible, it makes you feel small because you realize it's going to take you ten years to get there, to explore that possibility.

Do you ever feel that way?

Oh yeah! I feel like it has happened to me multiple times where I have stumbled onto something, and I've said, "Oh my god, it's going to take me forever to figure this out." And it's almost discouraging, but to be able to see that is a big deal, and it's a sign that I'm still growing and that I'm different than I was a year ago, or even a few months ago. And I just want to keep moving in that direction.

How, in particular, do you think your "SIGHT" changed?
What I see and how I see- that's really the thing that I find has changed in me the most as I've explored myself and the dance. The things that looked superhuman to me when I first started, all of a sudden I can see the logic and I see the math of it. It's very evident to me what's going on. It doesn't look like it's super human anymore.

What do you think your role as a teacher is?

As I discover these different things, I want to help other people discover them too. I want to make their process a little easier and a little more tangible for them.

I've gone through the madness of trying to figure it out, of trying to find a needle in a haystack, you know. And that's what I think any coach, or guide or person who really says that they are a teacher should do. The responsibility is huge. And I think that you affect people's lives in a very profound way. And if you are going to have that responsibility, part of it means that you KNOW where you're taking your students, or where you're sending them. Because, even as far as the art form is concerned, I find that there is a certain reciprocation in me sharing it. Because if I can make somebody better than I am, or than I was at the point that they are studying, then THEY can ALSO go and teach something above what I was able to get. So the rest of their journey is a little easier and they are able to dig a little deeper than I was able to dig. Then the level keeps going up, as opposed to teaching people and then leaving before they get it, and then starting to teach other people, who leave before THEY get it. Then the whole art form is going in the wrong direction. And I feel like it's a disrespect to what the art form has done for me, as a person, to go in that negative direction.

What does dancing mean to you?

It is an art form, a language for expression. There is a story about Savion Glover, the tap dancer, that explains this well. Somebody told me that he was at a meeting with all these executives and he was trying to get a point across. He was TRYING to explain it to them, but he was getting very frustrated because they weren't getting it. So he jumped on the table and he started dancing, and everyone GOT IT. They understood what he was saying through him dancing. So he was able, through his "second language", if you will, to be more communicative than he was verbally. And THAT is DEEP. I find that to be very profound because ultimately, that's what I think we're trying to do.

I think artists are people with something to say, and they've chosen this particular language to say it. And as they develop what they're trying to say, their medium is their language, their voice. That becomes this art form, whether it be music, or painting, or poetry. They're just different languages and they are trying to be expressed on a HUMAN level. They are things that people don't necessarily need to understand the language to, in order to understand what it is that you're saying. It is much more universal than language itself.

As there are so many differences linguistically, so it is for different arts, I think. I think art is THAT, you know -finding your freedom, and your expression. It's like going to a therapist and spouting out all your problems. You can get on the dance floor and do the same thing, and it has the same effect- that release of the things that you want people to understand about you.

Your name is huge in the salsa scene. Everyone knows Frankie Martinez, and you could so easily let it go to your head. What keeps you so focused and grounded?

(laughs) Well, thank you. That's nice. I think it's a wonderful thing to be recognized and known in that way. As people were getting to know me, and continue to find out about me and to know who I am, I find that at times it seems a little overwhelming. It makes me feel a little nervous and intimidated, at the magnitude of it.

I remember the first few trips that I took with Aisha, my first partner that I traveled with. The response scared me, because it was something I couldn't have even dreamed of having. It was so deep, and I couldn't believe that it was ME that people were so excited about.

But I think from martial arts, again, the process of understanding yourself, and of achieving a certain level of skill, is such a massive undertaking, that it inherently ends up in humility at the end of it because you know how much you sweat and bled and cried to achieve the smallest thing. I think that if something is achieved without discipline, it's very easy for somebody to be kind of narcissistic about it, because you didn't have to GO through anything to get it. And it doesn't make you realize what the people that ARE going through the beginning stages of this undertaking are going through. You kind of look down at them and you don't make the connection between you at that point and them at that point. I think that it makes me compassionate to work hard and to realize that if other people want to achieve the same kind of thing, they are going to have to knuckle down to get it.

We used to say Oss! when we met each other in martial arts. Oss! is a Japanese term, and it's comprised of two characters- to PUSH and to SUFFER. And we would say it all the time. It was like saying "yes". And the point is that this reaffirmation to each other shows we empathize and we want to help you to keep pushing through the suffering, because it's the way you're going to achieve what you're going to achieve. There's a certain compassion there, a certain level of "I know what you're going through."

And also, you never know who you are talking to. Just because we're on the wood, and I happen to be the authority and you the student on the wood, doesn't mean we go out and it's the same thing. You might be a brain surgeon and I don't know anything about it. One aspect of life doesn't give me any authority over you, or any reason to feel like I am superior to anyone.

When I met Marc Anthony, I shook his hand. He came up to me and told me that I had danced a beautiful cha cha. He said, "That was gorgeous!" We had done a demonstration in Hawaii and he came up to me and introduced himself to me. He said hello and I shook his hand as an artist. I felt I did MY thing at the same level that he was doing HIS thing. There was no reason for us to feel like one of us was better than the other. I always feel like I'm putting forth the effort and I have the ability to do what anybody else does, and that had I chosen that path, I would be there, right along side you. But this is the path that I've chosen. Everybody has their genius and they're talent and they are all as valid as what I do. And I would never look down on anybody without understanding them, without acknowledging that.

So it's more than just about having a talent for something?

Yes, because if you are talented in something, it's not necessarily something that you worked for. It's something that you were given genetically. Somehow, you had an affinity for it. And that talent is not something that you chose. Just like someone who was born with good looks. They didn't really work at it. And so the thing to be proud of is the work you've done, the difference that you've made through your efforts to ENHANCE whatever talent you may have. THAT'S the thing to be proud of.

You've put out one DVD. Are there plans for a second one anytime soon?

I'm the kind of guy that likes to change people's perceptions about things. I know that I never bought a dance DVD and I didn't take private lessons. I never did that kind of stuff. But it seems to be part of the culture and so people make you responsible for that. I realize that the ACCESS is the point. People around the world are looking for access to you, and because they're in different places, they don't have the money or whatever it is.

So I WANTED to do something, and we have a preliminary version of this already in place, where maybe we could have an online program set up where I would be teaching material, and people from around the world would have access to that without me having to physically go around and move product. People would be able to, on a regular basis, tap into what I was teaching, and to what I had to offer, and have access to that.
I want to do something that is more efficient in getting the word out. Bruce Lee, for example, started doing movies and stopped teaching classes because he felt that he was touching students in a certain way – one on one- and that he could affect and teach his philosophy to masses and masses of people by sticking it into his movies. His movies are chalk full of what he has to teach and to offer and that medium made more sense to him, and made it feel more worth it for him to do.

I find that people come in, and they workshop, and they get to experience you as a person, but only for a short time. So you're not really changing them much. You teach them a turn pattern or you teach them some footwork, or you teach them how to move their body in a certain way, and it doesn't really help you get your word across because the exposure is limited. And so the longer performances that we do now, the structure and the material, I find that exposing people to that has a much more profound effect as far as really getting across the message.

I am very careful about how I direct my career and my work. I'm careful to make sure I'm making decisions that have long term implications and that are deeply satisfying, instead of trying to satisfy the quick urges that people may have right now.

I know that it would help to do more DVDs. Again, it's part of the culture. But just that in itself,... See, I have a "pop allergy." (smiles)

Tasleem- (laughs).

I am allergic to pop culture (laughs) so the things that I find are the norm, or what people expect from you, those are the first things that I start to reject

Sometimes that's a good way to be (smiles).

Yeah, really, because I feel like they're sticking me in that box, and it really bugs the hell out of me (laughs). And sometimes, they're right, and I have to kind of overcome that feeling of, "Uggh, I don't want to conform," you know?

Yes, I think I do.

I mean, it took me the longest time to get a cell phone (laughs)

Me too! I just got one recently after people constantly complaining about me not having one! (laughs)

Yeah? (laughs). Because when I first got one, I was thinking I don't want anyone to know where I am. And then the whole Facebook thing happened, and I was thinking I don't know about this. This is just …voyeurism (LAUGHS)

There are a lot of things you have to keep up with. But there are things that I think that I have the ability to teach people they would be attracted to, things they may not even know they would be attracted to. I've always been like that.

I've never even been a big nightclub kind of guy. I don't drink, I don't…

I heard that you don't eat chocolate. Is that true?

No, I don't (smiles).

Forget about dancing then, can you teach me how to do THAT? (laughs)

(LAUGHS) Well, it's not easy when you have a terrible sweet tooth. Believe me, I have my cheat day. I have my day when I set aside all that. But the discipline exists because I live as a dancer and I like to show that discipline on a daily basis. Part of my presentation, along with the way I dress, and that whole packaging on stage, is my physique and the conditioning of my physique, because it adds to the aesthetic. It's part of the package. And I don't think that there's any more profound compliment than to be walking down the street and have somebody say that you're a dancer. They can realize it without you having to dance. There's SOMETHING about you that's different- you have discipline beyond what the normal person has. I'm using my body, and I will be more efficient and more proficient if my body is trained muscularly and CONDITIONED to do this. And it's that choice. That's what I want to put forth and the way that I want to be perceived as I walk through my daily life.

I want people to see that, and I want to be able to carry that around. For example, a musician has a saxophone strapped across his back and people say, "Hey, you play?" And he says, "Yeah, I play".

So your body is your saxophone (laughs)?

Yeah (laughs), that's right. Really, it is. It's our instrument. So the same way you'd care for your favorite guitar or your favorite set of paint brushes, this is what we have to work with. So we want it to be finely tuned and to able to show it off.

Also, any opportunity that I have to personalize things, whether it's interior design or the way I dress, those choices are made with me showing my self in mind. I'm trying to constantly put touches of myself into things I do. My diet is one of those things. As much as it's painful (laughs), because I have a TERRIBLE sweet tooth and I love all the little things that I try to avoid, it's an important part of the aesthetic.

But I make time for those things I love, in a disciplined way, and I enjoy them in small amounts so that they don't become detrimental to my passion.

In part one of this interview, we really discussed your background in martial arts. Going back to that a little bit, you've made a few jokes based on the movie the Karate Kid. "Everyone always wanted to be Daniel Son," you said on a few occasions, "but I always wanted to be Mr. Miyagi." The class laughs, and I'm sure it's meant to be funny. But on another level, it is really quite deep. Can you explain what you mean by this?

(laughs) On a very elementary level, the manifestation of the art form that we are usually exposed to is the young person who is still going through the process, who is able to take advantage of their youth and their energy and their fever for what they're doing. They still possess that childlike nature to express that. But what you don't get exposed to in the same way is the crunchy old man that's teaching that young guy.

Tasleem- (laughs).

And again, in a very simplified way, the expression of understanding is always most impressive when it is it is delivered or expressed with the least amount of energy or effort possible. The person who REALLY understands is just being human. They are not really doing something that's different from them selves.

The old man in the martial arts movies really no longer has the luxury of youth and athleticism to express the essence of what he is doing. What he is left with is the reality of it, the essence of it. Because now that all the stuff he took advantage of, when he bounced off the walls when he was young, is no longer available to him, he comes to a different understanding of it. THAT'S the understanding that I tried to focus myself on.

Even initially, I didn't want to be the young guy who was using his youth. Because you're ultimately going to end up like the old man. They used to say that if you throw five hundred punches, the last fifteen are going to be the best ones, because you're so exhausted, you can't play games anymore. You come to the purest form of it, the most direct expression of it. And it takes a lifetime to figure that out, because you're figuring out yourself and how to express yourself.

Can you explain further how this thinking contributes to your dancing?

So I'm enjoying being the young, athletic man, and that's a big part of my dancing. But I also realize that it's a temporary thing, as all of it is, but that the essence is the important thing. And the essence is where you really get a taste of someone's understanding and proficiency of something. It's the SUBTLE things and the LITTLE things that carry so much more information than the very energetic things that you see. If it looks like you're trying too hard, you're trying but you don't get it yet. It shouldn't be something that is outside of what is natural for you. It should be the same as breathing. And that suzie q should be just as easy. It should all kind of make the same sense to you, ultimately. Everything is just as easy as anything else.

That happens in classes- sometimes the things that I think are very simple, I'm reminded that some people who don't have that understanding are nowhere near being able to comprehend them. At first I think, why can't you get this?

For example, with beginners, just simple rock-stepping and changing weight is something so foreign to some people. They haven't dealt with it. And it's something so HUMAN for me. Something that is so much a part of what I am and who I am. And it's not like I walk around and feel like I have all this knowledge or that I have all this training, it's just kind of what I do. It's a part of me being me. It doesn't feel like there's anything extra there.

There's no separation between me and the dance, or me DOING the dance. I'm a dancer because people understand that, but I'm Frankie Martinez, and THIS is Frankie Martinez. And this is how I would show you who I am.

Thank you for sharing a bit of who you are with us today, and for your inspiring words.

It's not a problem, except that I could talk on and on, until I make you dizzy! (laughs). But seriously, I love to talk about these things and I think that we don't get a lot of chances to express ourselves in these terms and to really discuss what we're all about. So anytime somebody's even interested, in the depths of what we do, it's very exciting to share it.

To find out more about Frankie Martinez visit the Abakuá Afro-Latin Dance Company website